View Full Version : Roebling Video
Miker
06-22-2013, 04:32 AM
Was first session out; wasn't pushing brake zones.
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03SVTCOBRA
06-22-2013, 10:08 AM
No gloves or anything, this guy is hardcore.
Miker
06-22-2013, 10:44 AM
What's up with the faggot tag?
Automatics can be very dangerous if you don't manually shift them on track. If you are in drive and it randomly kicks down a gear mid corner you WILL spin.
dkbmxer002
06-22-2013, 11:12 AM
so you did all that brake work and took it easy braking?
1:32ish lap time?
Miker
06-22-2013, 11:19 AM
so you did all that brake work and took it easy braking?
1:32ish lap time?
I had a brake line bust last week so I just didn't have the balls to go into T1 at ~140mph and brake at the 3 like I could have. They never faded vs stockers that faded after 3 laps.
Something like that.
Miker
06-22-2013, 11:21 AM
Who ever if hiding behind tags why don't you post like a man?
dkbmxer002
06-22-2013, 11:22 AM
I had a brake line bust last week so I just didn't have the balls to go into T1 at ~140mph and brake at the 3 like I could have. They never faded vs stockers that faded after 3 laps.
Something like that.
so why not push it after the first lap?
Miker
06-22-2013, 11:48 AM
so why not push it after the first lap?
I was going to eye everything after the first session then go out and push it. But I never made it to the 2nd session due to mechanical issues.
What's up with the faggot tag?
Automatics can be very dangerous if you don't manually shift them on track. If you are in drive and it randomly kicks down a gear mid corner you WILL spin.
internet is full of trash talking tough guys who hide behind tags.
BIRDMAN
06-22-2013, 01:49 PM
For what it's worth, they aren't my tags.
But I too was confused as to why after all those glorious brake upgrades that you would "take it easy on the brakes" of all things. But I saw your explanation.
What mechanical issues did you have?
Miker
06-22-2013, 02:04 PM
For what it's worth, they aren't my tags.
But I too was confused as to why after all those glorious brake upgrades that you would "take it easy on the brakes" of all things. But I saw your explanation.
What mechanical issues did you have?
Transmission got unhappy, and I broke a tire.
pontiac_boy
06-22-2013, 02:39 PM
Looks like alot of fun. If I had just dont all that brake work I would have made a shake down pass too. Whoever made the tags is probably jealous.
ForceFed4g63
06-22-2013, 02:53 PM
Some serious hate up in here.
BIRDMAN
06-22-2013, 02:54 PM
Whoever made the tags is probably jealous.
LOL, of what?
dkbmxer002
06-22-2013, 03:08 PM
An auto being manually shifted at high temps wasn't happy? No wai
Miker
06-22-2013, 03:23 PM
An auto being manually shifted at high temps wasn't happy? No wai
I see way lower temps when I manual shift vs let the transmission search around.
GreebeanZ28
06-22-2013, 05:51 PM
Transmission got unhappy, and I broke a tire.
Shoulda had super sports! J/k...sorry to hear stuff tore up for real.
Miker
06-22-2013, 06:04 PM
GearMesh came out to take a look at it. I managed to do something special to my trans because he hasn't seen anything like it before.
The Driver
06-22-2013, 10:03 PM
GearMesh came out to take a look at it. I managed to do something special to my trans because he hasn't seen anything like it before.
No automatic likes being manually shifted that hard that much. Might be time to go w/ a 6-speed..........
Miker
06-22-2013, 10:59 PM
No automatic likes being manually shifted that hard that much. Might be time to go w/ a 6-speed..........
We are thinking paddle shift time.
dkbmxer002
06-22-2013, 11:04 PM
I hope that's a joke.
gearmesh, inc.
06-22-2013, 11:52 PM
I have always been suspicious about manual shifting under power on the 4L60E platform. Manual shifting moves the manual valve instantly to port fluid, but the electronic sensory and executing side of the shift solenoid logic can't act that fast. Miker's roadracing application of a 4L65E is definitely a first time experience for me, and I look forward to engaging into some R&D to cover every durability issue we can uncover. An autopsy in the near future should reveal some pertinent details.
I have seen instances on a couple of other 4L60Es in the past concerning a bad shift solenoid combined with manual shifting in order to obtain lower gears to drive around town until repairs can be done causing burnt low/rev clutches. I see this as an engineering shortsight on GM's part as they definitely didn't look into this combination of circumstances to prevent further transmission damage.
All my drag racing oriented 4L60E builds have been set up for leaving the shifter in D3 or D4 and letting the electronics handle all the shift scheduling. That way, conflicts between manual valve fluid and what the shift solenoids are calling for are eliminated. I have a pretty good track record so far on 600hp+ units placed in drag racing applications, so this evidence strongly supports the theory of letting all gear commands come solely through the shift solenoids.
The ultimate answer for roadracing a 4L60E platform transmission may be to go stand alone controller with paddle shfiters. That way, all shift commands go solely through the shift solenoids rather than trying to keep up with instant fluid commands from the manual valve. US Shift makes a kick-ass stand alone that blows the TCI controller out the water, for less money to boot.
dkbmxer002
06-23-2013, 12:56 AM
I'm so glad someone with first hand knowledge finally spoke lol. Like I was saying lol
snakeplissken
06-23-2013, 09:10 AM
That sucks - I know the wallet lightening feeling of breaking before lunch at a track day.
FRDnemesis
06-23-2013, 11:07 AM
Who ever if hiding behind tags why don't you post like a man?
Haterz gonna hate. You've got skills. :cheers
snakeplissken
06-23-2013, 01:18 PM
Haterz gonna hate. You've got skills. :cheers
Agreed. I'll be interested in Gerald's paddle shifter setup, although I am still partial to 3 pedals.
FRDnemesis
06-23-2013, 01:42 PM
Agreed. I'll be interested in Gerald's paddle shifter setup, although I am still partial to 3 pedals.
In the words of Jeremy Clarkson
"A proppa manual geeerbox, none of that STooooopid flappy paddle stuff" :hysterical:
Mike, too bad you couldn't get one of those manual trans (with clutch) but still flappy paddle controlled; might cost as much as the car though :mrgreen:
Miker
06-23-2013, 02:05 PM
That sucks - I know the wallet lightening feeling of breaking before lunch at a track day.
Factor in gas and food and I spend like $30 a minute for track time for that one session I had on track.
I hate the feel of a T56; to convert from an Auto = new wiring harness, computer, cluster, etc. It is a major pain. Plus I would end up needing the PPG dogbox gearset to have one hold my abuse.
Paddleshifters on the newer DCT options out there are amazing. Paddle shifters on an auto will never be as sharp; but I mainly just need manual gear control; I can live with a bit of lag.
When I talked to Holinger last year they would sell me a VZ Holden V8 Supercar 6speed sequential transmission that would bolt in with just a new driveshaft... For $12,000...
Miker
06-23-2013, 04:33 PM
http://www.rhdjapan.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/51682/Image/Normal/Image1.jpg
bambooi
06-23-2013, 06:16 PM
all those mods... maybe it's time for a corvette since you seem to like them and would enjoy tracking it.
Miker
06-23-2013, 06:35 PM
all those mods... maybe it's time for a corvette since you seem to like them and would enjoy tracking it.
I've thought about it many times; but the GTO was my first car and I've already blown enough money in it; might as well just continue the trend.
bambooi
06-23-2013, 07:21 PM
I've thought about it many times; but the GTO was my first car and I've already blown enough money in it; might as well just continue the trend.
Time to move up! You would enjoy a more track oriented car.
blkscls1z
06-23-2013, 07:28 PM
Just go ahead and join the base model club!
gearmesh, inc.
06-23-2013, 10:05 PM
After further study, going the paddle shifter route will not give you engine braking in electronic 1st gear. Engine braking in 2nd and 3rd is true via electronic shift with the Sonnax valve we already have in Miker's transmission.
To get engine braking in 1st, the oil for the low/reverse clutches has to come from the manual valve, which means manual 1st being selected at the shifter.
Of course there's the Transgo HD-3 full manual shift kit with a vacuum modulator for line pressure control. No electronics at all are needed, but you are on your own for TCC lockup operation, which can be done with a manual switch, or a knowledgeable tuner to keep it working through the existing PCM/TCM. The only drawback to the vacuum modulator line pressure control is a narrower operating span of line pressure. Stock electronics can run from 70psi up to 240psi (170psi operating span) with the Transgo HD-2 kit. Stock line pressure tops out at 190-200psi, so the extra 40psi available from the HD-2 kit is highly desirable for keeping the 3-4 clutches happy. The operating window with the vacuum modulator is only 130psi. This means that if you want the benefits of having 240lbs of line pressure available with the long race length pin under the vacuum modulator, 110psi is going to be the lowest it can go at light engine load/idle. This will make for rather harsh gear engagements into drive and reverse on a street car with a tight converter.
snakeplissken
06-23-2013, 10:23 PM
After further study, going the paddle shifter route will not give you engine braking in electronic 1st gear. Engine braking in 2nd and 3rd is true via electronic shift with the Sonnax valve we already have in Miker's transmission.
To get engine braking in 1st, the oil for the low/reverse clutches has to come from the manual valve, which means manual 1st being selected at the shifter.
Of course there's the Transgo HD-3 full manual shift kit with a vacuum modulator for line pressure control. No electronics at all are needed, but you are on your own for TCC lockup operation, which can be done with a manual switch, or a knowledgeable tuner to keep it working through the existing PCM/TCM. The only drawback to the vacuum modulator line pressure control is a narrower operating span of line pressure. Stock electronics can run from 70psi up to 240psi (170psi operating span) with the Transgo HD-2 kit. Stock line pressure tops out at 190-200psi, so the extra 40psi available from the HD-2 kit is highly desirable for keeping the 3-4 clutches happy. The operating window with the vacuum modulator is only 130psi. This means that if you want the benefits of having 240lbs of line pressure available with the long race length pin under the vacuum modulator, 110psi is going to be the lowest it can go at light engine load/idle. This will make for rather harsh gear engagements into drive and reverse on a street car with a tight converter.
My thoughts exactly. :mrgreen:
Miker
06-23-2013, 10:45 PM
After further study, going the paddle shifter route will not give you engine braking in electronic 1st gear. Engine braking in 2nd and 3rd is true via electronic shift with the Sonnax valve we already have in Miker's transmission.
To get engine braking in 1st, the oil for the low/reverse clutches has to come from the manual valve, which means manual 1st being selected at the shifter.
Of course there's the Transgo HD-3 full manual shift kit with a vacuum modulator for line pressure control. No electronics at all are needed, but you are on your own for TCC lockup operation, which can be done with a manual switch, or a knowledgeable tuner to keep it working through the existing PCM/TCM. The only drawback to the vacuum modulator line pressure control is a narrower operating span of line pressure. Stock electronics can run from 70psi up to 240psi (170psi operating span) with the Transgo HD-2 kit. Stock line pressure tops out at 190-200psi, so the extra 40psi available from the HD-2 kit is highly desirable for keeping the 3-4 clutches happy. The operating window with the vacuum modulator is only 130psi. This means that if you want the benefits of having 240lbs of line pressure available with the long race length pin under the vacuum modulator, 110psi is going to be the lowest it can go at light engine load/idle. This will make for rather harsh gear engagements into drive and reverse on a street car with a tight converter.
Keisler sells a 4L65e with engine braking in 1st, 2nd, 3rd for use with there paddle shifter kit.
I'm pretty sold on paddle shifters; just need to figure out the engine braking thing.
Miker
06-23-2013, 10:48 PM
Sonnax #77754-41.
Designed for use with paddle shifters; enginebraking in 1-2-3 while the shifter is in D3.
Only issue is that I use 4th gear on the straight at CMP and Roebling.
///Mcompact
06-23-2013, 11:45 PM
I hate the feel of a T56; to convert from an Auto = new wiring harness, computer, cluster, etc. It is a major pain. Plus I would end up needing the PPG dogbox gearset to have one hold my abuse.
Besides the PPG part of your quote, converting to Manual is not that big of a deal or that expensive. I converted an E36 BMW from Auto to Manual in 9 hours at the Hobby shop for probably less than $1K in parts. The key is to find a doner car. And that's a damn BMW, so anything is possible for your car.
I think you could pick up 7-8 T56s for the price of a PPG gearset, so if you are truly going to blow that tranny up, it'd probably be cheaper just to swap trannys out every once in awhile.
Just get it over with, man! Paddle-shifters on a slushbox still won't get you any closer to what you really need and that is TOTAL CONTROL of your drivetrain/driveline!! :bigthumb:
dkbmxer002
06-23-2013, 11:47 PM
With how many vette guys road race their cars at Roebling... I doubt you'll have that many serious issues....... Heavier or not it isn't going to be any more of a grenade than that junk stock 4l60....
RoadconeTuning
06-23-2013, 11:48 PM
looks fun, those long ass turns are more complicated than they look...honestly, expected a good bit higher speeds into 1... my buddies E36 M3 with minor bolt ons was running 128 into 1 a few weeks ago.
also, that autotragic stuff is for the birds... if you're having to manually shift it anyways why not put a third pedal there so you actually have control of the car? if for no other reason than to decouple everything in the event it gets out of hand.
gearmesh, inc.
06-23-2013, 11:56 PM
The Sonnax valve only applies the overrun clutch, which provides engine braking in 2nd and 3rd by keeping the forward sprag from freewheeling. Even though it will keep the overrun clutch applied in 1st gear to protect the forward sprag from enduring a shock impact when you jab back into the throttle, the low/reverse clutches in the rear of the trans still need to be applied to keep the low one way clutch from freewheeling to obtain engine braking in 1st. Engine braking in 1st can only happen when both the overrun clutch AND the low/reverse clutch is applied. In 2nd and 3rd, the low one way freewheels by design and is not needed for engine braking to be obtained in 2nd and 3rd.
I tooled around the Keisler website. Stuff is a little hard to find on there due to the website having some navigation holes, but there looks to be some very well thought out products in there. http://www.keislerauto.com/recent-news/keisler-goes-green-new-generation-automatic-overdrive-transmission.html
That Keisler stuff is badass! The paddle shifters are wireless. Sounds like they have modified their valve body for true engine braking in 1st without your hands ever leaving the wheel. Pricey though, but it sure works! I can see some Corvette guys jumping on this!
Miker
06-24-2013, 12:25 AM
looks fun, those long ass turns are more complicated than they look...honestly, expected a good bit higher speeds into 1... my buddies E36 M3 with minor bolt ons was running 128 into 1 a few weeks ago.
I was around 140 into T1. If I held more speed in the final sweeper I would pick up a good bit down the straight. It rained the night before and I really didn't feel like hitting grass entering the straight.
Miker
06-24-2013, 12:31 AM
The Sonnax valve only applies the overrun clutch, which provides engine braking in 2nd and 3rd by keeping the forward sprag from freewheeling. Even though it will keep the overrun clutch applied in 1st gear to protect the forward sprag from enduring a shock impact when you jab back into the throttle, the low/reverse clutches in the rear of the trans still need to be applied to keep the low one way clutch from freewheeling to obtain engine braking in 1st. Engine braking in 1st can only happen when both the overrun clutch AND the low/reverse clutch is applied. In 2nd and 3rd, the low one way freewheels by design and is not needed for engine braking to be obtained in 2nd and 3rd.
Website gives bad info then.
Source: http://transmissioncenter.net/pinhole.htm
"In addition, this Sonnax valve allows full downshift engine braking in 1st, 2nd and 3rd while the shifter remains in the D3 position. This upgrade would work well with applications using aftermarket electronic ÔÇ£paddleÔÇØ shifters."
Miker
06-24-2013, 12:33 AM
Now just to figure out where they drill the hole in the valve body.
GreebeanZ28
06-24-2013, 04:57 AM
Still on a stock-built-for-gm t56 here, 7 years of poweshifting goodness later. Im rather ruthless to it, no issues.
gearmesh, inc.
06-24-2013, 07:49 AM
I will admit, a T56 is plenty stout for a factory chosen gearbox. There's a lot more left over meat in one to handle increased hp over stock than what the earlier T5 could handle. Once a T56 gets some bronze fork pads and a cast iron 3-4 shift fork, they last a long time.
RoadconeTuning
06-24-2013, 08:04 AM
I was around 140 into T1. If I held more speed in the final sweeper I would pick up a good bit down the straight. It rained the night before and I really didn't feel like hitting grass entering the straight.
http://safarisigns.com/content/portfolioimages/mikes%20landscaping%20stickers.jpg
UnaBomber
06-24-2013, 10:49 AM
In the words of Jeremy Clarkson
"A proppa manual geeerbox, none of that STooooopid flappy paddle stuff" :hysterical:
Mike, too bad you couldn't get one of those manual trans (with clutch) but still flappy paddle controlled; might cost as much as the car though :mrgreen:
my flappy paddle gearbox car has no issues getting around Roebling deep in the teens on street tires
:finger:
BIRDMAN
06-24-2013, 11:04 AM
my flappy paddle gearbox car has no issues getting around Roebling deep in the teens on street tires
:finger:
lol You can't compare a souped up GTR to a GTO with fappy paddles.
dkbmxer002
06-24-2013, 11:06 AM
Yeah a gtr that has a transmission which costs more than an entire Gto.... Lol
snakeplissken
06-24-2013, 11:41 AM
my flappy paddle gearbox car has no issues getting around Roebling deep in the teens on street tires
:finger:
AMP next month ?
GreebeanZ28
06-24-2013, 02:37 PM
my flappy paddle gearbox car has no issues getting around Roebling deep in the teens on street tires
:finger:
They need to offer a 2wd stick option!
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