Cobra block question

Mustangscotty · 08-05-2010, 07:25 PM

What makes a Terminator engine block different than a Mustang GT block the same year?

BAD BOB · 08-05-2010, 07:36 PM

i believe that the main difference is that the terminator block is aluminum and the reg GT is iron. the term is also a dual cam motor and the gt is not but i dont know if that changes anything. but i dont know shit about them so all this could be wrong. hope it helps some

the12fast4u · 08-05-2010, 07:46 PM

the terminator block is iron.im not sure in the difference between it and the gt block but they are almost if not the same.the difference between sohc and dohc is heads,timing chain cover,intake manifold. you can interchange heads on either as long as you have the proper timing chain cover,and supporting hardware. all 4.6/5.4 blocks will work with any 2v 4v head setup

Magoo · 08-05-2010, 08:04 PM

Everything I've ever seen says the iron block is basically the same minus the bolts for the timing cover.

Mustangscotty · 08-05-2010, 09:28 PM

Thanks for chiming fella's.. MUCH APPRECIATED !

I found out several things about the engine in my Cobra this week. First, the head gasket on the drivers side was blocking coolant flow in cylinders 5 and 7. That caused those two cylinders to run hotter and piston 7 started to separate. There is a technical term for it but I forget.

Second, the engine builder ordered clevite bearings for the bottom end and discovered the engine wasn't a Romeo block (Cobra block). I assume all 03/ 04 Cobra motors are Romeo blocks?
Apparently the end bearings in a GT block have some sort of tab that tells the engine builder the block is a non-Cobra engine?? I'm clueless on this one and have concerns the the engine is not an actual Terminator block.

How can I tell if the block is a GT block or an actual Terminator block? Part numbers?

LXtasy · 08-05-2010, 10:03 PM

did you ever have the block out and been worked? if so...oh boy i know where thats going

Mustangscotty · 08-05-2010, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LXtasy

did you ever have the block out and been worked? if so...oh boy i know where thats going

yup.

not out for blood, just want my car to be right even if someone else may have wronged me
This could also be a good time to upgrade to an aluminator block

the12fast4u · 08-05-2010, 10:16 PM

sounds like you needed the head cooling mod

Mustangscotty · 08-05-2010, 10:30 PM

Went ahead and did the mod where a hose is added connecting the back side of each head.

Forgot the actual name of that mod, also added a larger radiator.

Did some research in the Sean Hyland book and found this..

Primarily, the Windsor plant has produced the 4.6-, 5.4-, and
6.8-liter modular engines used in the Ford trucks, while the Romeo based engines were slated for use in the car lines. Changing demand and availability, however, has resulted in the Mustang in particular being produced with both versions since 1999. The major difference between the two is the main bearing caps and the main bearings themselves. Each of these engines uses different main bearing sets that are not interchangeable. It is difficult to mess this up, because the tangs are different between the two main caps.

The 4.6 Windsor iron block is readily
identified by the large W cast in the
valley area and also in the front of the
block. The other 4.6 iron block is the
Romeo. The main bearings of the
Windsor and the Romeo are not
interchangeable.

It appears 03/ 04 Cobra's use blocks from two different assembly plants.

the12fast4u · 08-06-2010, 01:03 AM

yep thats the head cooling mod a couple companys brand it their own but they are all the same.did one one my friends cobra

Zacharyx · 08-06-2010, 07:53 AM

after 2002 all mustang blocks where the same, the earlier romeo and windsor iron blocks needed to be clearanced for the counterweights of a cobra crank, windsor cranks also have an 8 bolt crank on the nodular cranks. Windsor were only used in mustangs from 99-01. there is also a difference in the heads used in the Windsor Plant and Romeo plants, the heads are interchangeable but not the valve covers

when was the hyland book written??

Mustangscotty · 08-06-2010, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zacharyx

after 2002 all mustang blocks where the same, the earlier romeo and windsor iron blocks needed to be clearanced for the counterweights of a cobra crank, windsor cranks also have an 8 bolt crank on the nodular cranks. Windsor were only used in mustangs from 99-01. there is also a difference in the heads used in the Windsor Plant and Romeo plants, the heads are interchangeable but not the valve covers

when was the hyland book written??

The Hyland book was printed 01 Dec, 2007
http://www.amazon.com/Build-Max-Perf...sr=8-1-catcorr

Where did you get info in your post from? Just curious because I want to confirm when Windsor engines were used in Mustangs.

I do have the Cobra crank, heads, chain cover, intake... The block is all that I'm concerned with.

Found some more info..
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us
Windsor Blocks

1999-’04
The F75E blocks that were used from ’99-’04 were identical to the original F75E castings except that they had an 8.0mm hole for the new knock sensor. The Windsor motor was used in the pickups along with the Mustang and the Expedition in ’99, in the Mustang in ’00, and in the F150 Supercrew, four door pickups from ’01 through ’04.

Seems I can't really get a straight answer from web sources until refrencing the Sean Hyland book. Hyland says that when supply for Mustang engines were low, blocks were sourced from the Windsor plant.

Take a look at this thread,

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

the12fast4u · 08-06-2010, 04:23 PM

a real nice reference guide is how to rebuild 4.6/5.4 ford motors i bought mine at books a million for 20 bucks there is so much info and pics in there shows you the difference in blocks, heads, give you flow numbers on stock and ported heads its a really great source of info for mod motors

Zacharyx · 08-06-2010, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustangscotty

The Hyland book was printed 01 Dec, 2007
http://www.amazon.com/Build-Max-Perf...sr=8-1-catcorr

Where did you get info in your post from? Just curious because I want to confirm when Windsor engines were used in Mustangs.

I do have the Cobra crank, heads, chain cover, intake... The block is all that I'm concerned with.

Found some more info..
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us
Windsor Blocks

1999-ÔÇÖ04
The F75E blocks that were used from ÔÇÖ99-ÔÇÖ04 were identical to the original F75E castings except that they had an 8.0mm hole for the new knock sensor. The Windsor motor was used in the pickups along with the Mustang and the Expedition in ÔÇÖ99, in the Mustang in ÔÇÖ00, and in the F150 Supercrew, four door pickups from ÔÇÖ01 through ÔÇÖ04.

Seems I can't really get a straight answer from web sources until refrencing the Sean Hyland book. Hyland says that when supply for Mustang engines were low, blocks were sourced from the Windsor plant.

Take a look at this thread,

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

I have helped pull engines and done work on every year mod motor mustang you can imagine ( no 5.o yet) go to a car gathering and count valve cover bolts you will notice the difference in the 99-01 cars, once in a while people will have Windsor heads on a Romeo block or vice versa due to PI swaps or just the cores they pulled for port work.

Mustangscotty · 08-06-2010, 07:50 PM

I think it comes down to a few things. If the Windsor block in my Cobra was swapped out on the first build then Robert's Auto or someone at Robert's screwed me and is probably laughing their asses off.

If the Windsor block was installed at the factory its easy to assume a very unlikely set of circumstances allowed that to happen.

Sean Hyland stated Windsor blocks were sourced if the Romeo blocks were low on production. In any case, I have confirmed all 03/04 Cobra engines, regardless of where the blocks were made did get assembled at the Romeo plant by hand.

My engine builder is adamant that no Windsor blocks were installed in the 03/04 Cobra's at any time. I want to agree but need to see it in writing from a Ford authority.

In any case, I don't think it will affect value of the car. Its surprising to discover how mysterious Ford is and difficult to understand why direct answers cannot be had from them.

Matts94Z28 · 08-06-2010, 08:19 PM

Robert's automotive... now those are guys you can trust!!

LXtasy · 08-06-2010, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matts94Z28

Robert's automotive... now those are guys you can trust!!

They have radio commercials and such, someone trusts them to still be in business.

Mustangscotty · 08-06-2010, 09:45 PM

I don't want this to turn into a smearing thread about Robert's or any other business. Given much can be said about that place, I'm sure things can be said about many other locations around Charleston. Robert's did cut me a good deal on labor. Seems that the more I get into the engine rebuild, the more the good deal on labor wasn't such a good deal after all.

Facts are facts regarding the engine rebuild. It is a fact that Roberts did install the head gasket on the drivers side incorrectly and not uncanny that the #7 piston located next to the blocked coolant passages did a nuclear meltdown.
Now Scotty has to spend $$$ on an engine rebuild and dealing with the mysterious Windsor block issue as well.

08-05-2010, 07:25 PM	#1
Mustangscotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 699	Cobra block question What makes a Terminator engine block different than a Mustang GT block the same year? __________________ Scotty 67 Mustang fastback 68 Mustang coupe 03 Cobra 13 F150 4x4 69 Harley FLH 67 Camaro

08-05-2010, 07:36 PM	#2
BAD BOB Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: SUMMERVILLE Posts: 3,681	i believe that the main difference is that the terminator block is aluminum and the reg GT is iron. the term is also a dual cam motor and the gt is not but i dont know if that changes anything. but i dont know shit about them so all this could be wrong. hope it helps some __________________ IM BAD BOB

08-05-2010, 07:46 PM	#3
the12fast4u Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: sc Posts: 75	the terminator block is iron.im not sure in the difference between it and the gt block but they are almost if not the same.the difference between sohc and dohc is heads,timing chain cover,intake manifold. you can interchange heads on either as long as you have the proper timing chain cover,and supporting hardware. all 4.6/5.4 blocks will work with any 2v 4v head setup __________________

08-05-2010, 08:04 PM	#4
Magoo Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 925	Everything I've ever seen says the iron block is basically the same minus the bolts for the timing cover. __________________ Black 2003 Cobra Ported, Upper/Lower Pullied, Sprayed......going corn Slow 2010 BMW 335i JB4-G5iso, DCI, E85 2002 GSX-R600 Full Bolt-ons

08-05-2010, 09:28 PM	#5
Mustangscotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 699	Thanks for chiming fella's.. MUCH APPRECIATED ! I found out several things about the engine in my Cobra this week. First, the head gasket on the drivers side was blocking coolant flow in cylinders 5 and 7. That caused those two cylinders to run hotter and piston 7 started to separate. There is a technical term for it but I forget. Second, the engine builder ordered clevite bearings for the bottom end and discovered the engine wasn't a Romeo block (Cobra block). I assume all 03/ 04 Cobra motors are Romeo blocks? Apparently the end bearings in a GT block have some sort of tab that tells the engine builder the block is a non-Cobra engine?? I'm clueless on this one and have concerns the the engine is not an actual Terminator block. How can I tell if the block is a GT block or an actual Terminator block? Part numbers? __________________ Scotty 67 Mustang fastback 68 Mustang coupe 03 Cobra 13 F150 4x4 69 Harley FLH 67 Camaro Last edited by Mustangscotty; 08-05-2010 at 09:30 PM.

08-05-2010, 10:03 PM	#6
LXtasy Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Summerville, SC Posts: 9,564	did you ever have the block out and been worked? if so...oh boy i know where thats going __________________

08-05-2010, 10:16 PM	#8
the12fast4u Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: sc Posts: 75	sounds like you needed the head cooling mod __________________

08-05-2010, 10:30 PM	#9
Mustangscotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 699	Went ahead and did the mod where a hose is added connecting the back side of each head. Forgot the actual name of that mod, also added a larger radiator. Did some research in the Sean Hyland book and found this.. Primarily, the Windsor plant has produced the 4.6-, 5.4-, and 6.8-liter modular engines used in the Ford trucks, while the Romeo based engines were slated for use in the car lines. Changing demand and availability, however, has resulted in the Mustang in particular being produced with both versions since 1999. The major difference between the two is the main bearing caps and the main bearings themselves. Each of these engines uses different main bearing sets that are not interchangeable. It is difficult to mess this up, because the tangs are different between the two main caps. The 4.6 Windsor iron block is readily identified by the large W cast in the valley area and also in the front of the block. The other 4.6 iron block is the Romeo. The main bearings of the Windsor and the Romeo are not interchangeable. It appears 03/ 04 Cobra's use blocks from two different assembly plants. __________________ Scotty 67 Mustang fastback 68 Mustang coupe 03 Cobra 13 F150 4x4 69 Harley FLH 67 Camaro Last edited by Mustangscotty; 08-06-2010 at 12:44 AM.

08-06-2010, 01:03 AM	#10
the12fast4u Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: sc Posts: 75	yep thats the head cooling mod a couple companys brand it their own but they are all the same.did one one my friends cobra __________________

08-06-2010, 07:53 AM	#11
Zacharyx Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Savannah GA Posts: 330	after 2002 all mustang blocks where the same, the earlier romeo and windsor iron blocks needed to be clearanced for the counterweights of a cobra crank, windsor cranks also have an 8 bolt crank on the nodular cranks. Windsor were only used in mustangs from 99-01. there is also a difference in the heads used in the Windsor Plant and Romeo plants, the heads are interchangeable but not the valve covers when was the hyland book written?? __________________ Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis "And the dynos rumbled, and God spoke 'Take thine turbo, install it upon thine car, and destroy the many ricers!' Moderato est figmentum

08-06-2010, 04:23 PM	#13
the12fast4u Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: sc Posts: 75	a real nice reference guide is how to rebuild 4.6/5.4 ford motors i bought mine at books a million for 20 bucks there is so much info and pics in there shows you the difference in blocks, heads, give you flow numbers on stock and ported heads its a really great source of info for mod motors __________________

08-06-2010, 07:50 PM	#15
Mustangscotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 699	I think it comes down to a few things. If the Windsor block in my Cobra was swapped out on the first build then Robert's Auto or someone at Robert's screwed me and is probably laughing their asses off. If the Windsor block was installed at the factory its easy to assume a very unlikely set of circumstances allowed that to happen. Sean Hyland stated Windsor blocks were sourced if the Romeo blocks were low on production. In any case, I have confirmed all 03/04 Cobra engines, regardless of where the blocks were made did get assembled at the Romeo plant by hand. My engine builder is adamant that no Windsor blocks were installed in the 03/04 Cobra's at any time. I want to agree but need to see it in writing from a Ford authority. In any case, I don't think it will affect value of the car. Its surprising to discover how mysterious Ford is and difficult to understand why direct answers cannot be had from them. __________________ Scotty 67 Mustang fastback 68 Mustang coupe 03 Cobra 13 F150 4x4 69 Harley FLH 67 Camaro Last edited by Mustangscotty; 08-06-2010 at 07:53 PM.

08-06-2010, 08:19 PM	#16
Matts94Z28 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Summerville Posts: 12,039	Robert's automotive... now those are guys you can trust!! __________________ Charleston Performance Solutions 4560 Rivers Ave. N. Charleston SC 29405 843-225-1142 https://www.facebook.com/CharlestonPerformanceSolutions www.facebook.com/Selepack

08-06-2010, 09:45 PM	#18
Mustangscotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 699	I don't want this to turn into a smearing thread about Robert's or any other business. Given much can be said about that place, I'm sure things can be said about many other locations around Charleston. Robert's did cut me a good deal on labor. Seems that the more I get into the engine rebuild, the more the good deal on labor wasn't such a good deal after all. Facts are facts regarding the engine rebuild. It is a fact that Roberts did install the head gasket on the drivers side incorrectly and not uncanny that the #7 piston located next to the blocked coolant passages did a nuclear meltdown. Now Scotty has to spend $$$ on an engine rebuild and dealing with the mysterious Windsor block issue as well. __________________ Scotty 67 Mustang fastback 68 Mustang coupe 03 Cobra 13 F150 4x4 69 Harley FLH 67 Camaro Last edited by Mustangscotty; 08-06-2010 at 10:01 PM.